We all have all read enough science fiction novels to understand what is going to happen when the government starts censoring things, so there is no reason to even begain this debate, we all agree on that topic, but I want to move to a vastly more important topic and that is of the president. George W. Bush is a terrible president in that he has forgot a very important phrase throughout his precendency "civil liberties." Sure war-time presidents are always awarded more power to run the country but Bush has decided to go to far. I won't go into the minute details of everything he has does unless you really want me too, because we have already covered this, but i really hope that Bush doesn't get reelected for a second term - plz God.
Heh, censorship...why do we need to talk about it? Censorship sucks but it is somewhat necessary. The film, music etc. Industries censor themselves so it doesn't get to the point where the goverment has to set censorship guidelines...and we all know how anal that would be, heh. "Oh no! He said 'anal'! CENSOR IT OR DIE!" "Ahh! They said die! Censor them!" and then everyone would go insane, giving Canadians the opportunity they need to jump in and take over the world. Anyways, I'm sure I had a point somewhere. Ah yes, as long as people are so *expletive deleted* sensitive, there will be censorship.
Anyone wanna talk about censorship? 'Cuz I wholly agree that 9/11 has been beaten beyond death.. Which 27 posts will do most of the time, by the way.
Just one thing, in your latest post Ben you said Franson said "Americas are some of the cockiest ethnocentric bastards of the world." , but that was I, and im proud of it.
I will shut up...after this message. We have beaten the topic to death, and it seems that if I stopped writing, you will not have anyone to argue with. For a site called the "anarchist times," you all seem to be too like minded. By the way, CALM DOWN! Its only a stupid politics and philosophy!
Franson, I love Gross' quote, but if you did not realize it yet, no one reads anyone else's messages carefully. That especially applys to responses to what I have written. I have finally decided to stop criticizing people for not reading what I write, because it is futile. Gross asked:
"why did Osama Bin Laden attack America, why didn't he attack one of the other thousand nations that populate this Earth with as such supreme prejuidice he attacked America?...In that answer, Ben lies the reason that I believe that we can't go killing the arabs and say that we were attacked first."
I see it as justifying Bin Laden's actions. If the wording would have been 'why did Hitler try to destroy the Jews, why didn't he attack one of the other thousand ethnicities that populate this Earth with as such supreme prejuidice he attacked the Jews?...In that answer, Ben lies the reason that I believe that we can't go killing the Germans and say that we were attacked first,' noone would have doubted that was justification. I realize that is an extreme example, and the situations are different, but there is no doubt that Gross was trying to justify Bin Laden's actions. With his logic, you could justify practically anything.
By the way all of you have a very very low opinion of Americans. Jesse thinks that poor people should not be able to hold office or vote, and Gross and Franson think Americans are the stupidest people ever. For example, Franson wrote, "Americas are some of the cockiest ethnocentric bastards of the world." Please tell me, where else in the world have you been? Why do you hate your neighbors and your classmates so much? I agree that there are idiots in America, but to label all residents of a country like that is quite 'cocky,' wouldn't you say. America, like everywhere else, has idiots, and geniuses, lunatics, and sensible people. What proof do you have of American's cockyness and ethnocentricity as a whole? That is not what I get from my personal experiences...but then again, I am just a stupid, ugly American.
By the way you stupid bastards, September 11 is not the only attack committed by Al-Qaeda, they have literally committed hundreds. Further, Al Qaeda is just one organization out of hundreds worldwide. You keep on bringing it up that all I think about is September 11, and seem to believe that that organization, which without doubt is the most threatening organization to the U.S. right now, will never attack again. If we did not take away Al Qaeda's safety in Afghanistan, they would still be there training thousands of people (as they did before) to attack again. I do think that the world is safer that Al Qaeda's ability to train is greatly diminished.
Franson and Jesse, you acknowledge the existance of evil in your pieces. You do not meantion how to deal with it, just how not to deal with it. You do not think that I feel sorry for innocents who get caught in the crossfire? We did a lot of horrible things during the WWII to the enemy. The bombing of Tokyo, the firebombing of Dresdon. Both were horrible actions in themselves that actually did target civilians, unlike modern American tactics, but they brought a quicker end to the war, and ultimately saved millions of lives on both sides. There is an example of evil ultimately stopping evil.
By the way, your labeling as evil totally contradicts when you said "YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL SOMONE ELSE WHAT IS RIGHTAND WRONG," Jesse!
We have beaten the topic to death, and we need a new topic. If you feel obligated to respond, please do so, and this stupid bastard will shut up. If I get personal remark I find inexcusable (which is pretty hard for me to find), you will find one pissed off bastard waiting to respond.
I never responded to my own question so I would have to say that it is all about the melee Lovin' don't give me any of those pulleys or crap like that that.
Ben, evil brings nothing but evil. It is this simple and I'm with franson on this one, that killing in any form is evil. I take it you personally believe no innocent civilians were killed. I take it you are a child of the media. You must realize that in even the lightest context the media is nothing but manipulative. They show you not the truth but what they will get good ratings for seeing. You may have the so called "facts" but the problem is you believe the "facts." You seem like the kind of person where as CNN tells you that the boogie man lives under beds, you'd stay damn far from any bed. 911 wasn't as big of a deal as it was made out to be by the media. This kind of thing happens all over the world every day, maybe not on this scale, but it does, and no one here seems to give a fuck. And yet when it happens to us it hits us like a slap in the face, when it really should have just been a realization. The average American was ready to kill any Arab they saw because they were blind with rage. The average American doesn?t understand the situation in the Middle East and probably never will, and yet the average American votes and has an opinion on this. How is this right? I personally think that the government should be ruled by the rich, and lower and lower positions given to the poorer and poorer, so the average people still have representation. It would work far better for everything I believe. Well anyway, yea, kind of went of on a tangent there but that?s really what atimes is about. Random Tangents.
Now for those of you who were not here when Andrew asked this, which do you prefer
Efficient German Sex or Old Fashioned Melee Lovin?
I hardly think Andrew is justifying the September 11th attacks. I quote: "Yes obviosly what Bin Laden did was horrific and unprecendented, and he had no right to do it". 2. Do you, Ben, honestly think that no innocent civilians have been killed in the war on terrorism? The killing of unarmed men, women and children simply because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time seems fairly random to me.
However, I've said it once, and I'll say it again: a war for the sake of retribution (or retribution behind the thin mask that "matters of national security" provides, as it may be) is not necessary at all. Innocent civilians need not forfeit their lives because of hatred they did not begin and do not intend to propagate. What is necessary is to round up members of Al-Qaeda and, with the help of an impartial jury, decide what (morally founded) action most benefits the world as a whole. I do not endorse killing anyone. Killing is immoral, as regardless of the scale or ends of murder, it is still murder. However, I believe in destroying Al-Qaeda. And there you have it.
I didn't hate your personal attacks, so much as the fact that you did not address anything that I had written previously. If you do not address my arguments, you are not really arguing against me, are you? Because you gave me a question, I will give you several. 1) Are you justifying September 11 attacks? If so, why is it better than any of the 'horrible things' that you say America is so evil for? Do you have a double standard between for America and Bin Laden? If so is 9/11 morally the same as America targeting known terrorists, who have been trained in Al Qaeda camps with precision guided weapons? 2) When has America, ever, "randomly sluaghtering Arabs"? If you could tell me when, it would be quite helpful. (Bombing an Al-Qaeda terrorist camp does not count as 'randomly slaughtering Arabs' because bombing a specific military target and is not random at all.) I guess if your definition of a patriot is 'randomly slaughtering arabs', consider me Jane Fonda! 3) WHEN DO YOU TAKE A STAND GROSS? "I will never support killing someone because who they are or where they live or killing some one at all." What if someone wants to kill you? Would you just say we can't hurt them for who they are? What would you have done with the Nazis? Given them a hug?
Finally to answer your question...It doesn't matter why Osama attacked America! (Sorry to be such an arrogant, ugly American Bastard) He may have had a perfectly good reason! The only thing that matters is that he did and will do it again. The fact is that if you do not get that bastard's organization out of business, it will affect you, me and everyone. Do you deny that Al Qaeda is seeking nukes and other very powerful weapons, or would that just make you an "arrogant patriot?" Your rejection of becoming your definition of a "patriot" is quite noble, but you have a very narrow perspective of the world. Your extreme ideology blinds you of very real threats. But maybe, all the media is just being "manipulated" by the evil government. Sure, everyone is criticizing me, but I will still stand by my positions. I will not conform to the society of the A-Times! You are the one who is being manipulated and who is the conformist.
P.S. Gross is a paranoid bastard.
Franny, you dont say much, but when you do its sure to be grand. Good work
