WHO's standards of morality per say? Obviously you mean by yours, YOURS. We look back at the Romans and their gladiators and wonder how could they do something so cruel, but you are looking through your own eyes and their in lies the problem. It wasn?t considered wrong back then and that?s because the mentality was different. Just as their mentality is different in the Middle East. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL SOMONE ELSE WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG. Just because it makes since to you, does not mean it will to them. This is the problem with many US citizens; they feel that their way is right and that just how it is, but it?s not the truth. Americas are some of the cockiest ethnocentric bastards of the world. Once you understand that their life style works as it has for thousands of years, and the people do not want to change it, let it go let them be their own country. We should support no one but our selves and we should NEVER judge anyone. We feel as though some how we inherited the duty of policing the earth, but we didn?t, and no one wants to be policed. You may not realize this, as most feeble people have not but morality is 100% opinion, their is no true right, their is no true wrong.
It isn't exactly a piece of cake to for citizens to leave those countries. They don't even have that freedom in many places. Fine, let the bastards rot, but lets not pretend that hanging homosexuals and stoning to death adulterers is morally equivilant to trial by jury. If a country is crazy and it keeps to itself, fine! The fact is that we have been damaged by countries who began as despotic regimes minding their own business. Who cared about Taliban Afghanistan before 9/11? They were just blowing up thousand year old Buddah statues, not Americans (actually, they were harming us indirectly by harboring Bin Laden before 9/11, I am just trying to make a point)! Just because a country has a different form of governement is no reason in itself invade a country, but pretending that everything in the world is morally equivilant is not a good thing.
Just because we like democracy does not give us the right to shove it down other peoples throats, we would then be as bad as Russia after World War 2. I think we should let countries do what ever the hell they want and not fight unless we are first damaged. If the people want democracy let the bastards get it them selves, they don't need our help. If someone wants to worship a different god he can get the hell out of those countries
Oh, and BTW Dan, Clinton knew and also did nothing, not to mention after the Kohl (don't mind my spelling) he did nothing!
I don't know how much freedom of speech was allowed in the Iraq elections. Who ran against Saddam again? Were there any newspapers that were anti-Saddam? Well, if there was, they would have gotten a bullet through their head. Freedom of speech is the most crucial element in democracy. Without it, the citizens are not informed, and can be manipulated even more easily by those in power, creating a dictatorship. I guess Saddam Hussein won with 99.9% of the vote. Seems like a good old fashioned Soviet election.
I find it hard to believe that the terrorist attacks were completely inevitable. I've heard accounts of people in the Clinton adminstration who warned the Bush administration of the Al Qaeda stirring up. The response of the Bush administration was one of either arrogance or ignorance, I'm not really sure which. My point is that was a typical American response: to not care. Something unfortunate has to happen for anybody to listen, and even when they do, they don't react right, and they still don't care for very long. Don't get me wrong, I love America, I'm just not too fond of most Americans.
btw, technically, Saddam Hussein was elected "democratically", it was just a corrupt election.
and also, America doesn't just go into countries and place democracies, it puts whatever is easiest to manipulate (think chile, they democratically elected a communist, we dispose him and put a dictator in his stead)
Gross, I am trying to remember the Arab country with a popularly elected government...wait, that is right, there is none! I really can't remember any freedom of speech or religion either in the Middle East. Sure, America has puppet regimes in the Middle East who are dictatorial and suppress freedom, and as I wrote earlier in re: how different are we that is a huge mistake that undermines America's efforts. When I speak of democracy, I do not mean America dominating everyone, I mean elected governments, freedom of speech and other freedoms. Sorry, but I don't consider a country where adulterers are stoned to death very "ideal." Right now, the Arab world is in a sorry state. Most Arabs agree that popularly elected governments and freedom of speech would be a good thing. Maybe you misinterpretted my article, but I never said that what America does in bribing corrupt regimes is good, quite the opposite. Finally, since when did we start talking about South East Asia? The fact is that in the middle east, individuals, mainly religious leaders view the U.S. and the West as the threat. Maybe because of American interference in the past in the Middle East, maybe because of Western Culture that they see as pornographic and unholy, maybe because democracy lessens their power. Whatever the reason, these individuals, not everyone, view the U.S. as the "Great Satan" and have used their own means to attack Western and American targets. Maybe the Arab world is not ready yet, but democracies, not corrupt dictatorships, would make the Middle East more peaceful, and allow for a better world as a whole.
Good call Jesse, thanks for the backup . . . but Ben when you talk about how the Arab countries haven't got the message of democracy you are completely wrong because the have got the message and they have had very bad expierences with it. You see America's democracy works great in America but when we enforce it in other countries, namely Vietnam, we do it to establish puppet governments that are basically dictatorships. Now if you look at Afghanistan we tried to instill a puppet government by messing around with the countries internal affairs . . .and we gave a horrid image of what American democracy is. So by you saying that we haven't been able to spread freedom and democracy around the world, you are wrong because America has had oppurtunities to spread the "ideal government" but instead we spread cruel dictatorships that oppress the people more than the current gov't. But to change paths and argue with both Jesse and Ben, I don't think that other countries of the world think we are the "Great Satan" and instead they really don't care, they have bigger fish to fry. They have to worry about their neighbors with atomic weapons .. . obviosly some of the world thinks we are a horrid country but a lot of them don't think of us as their biggest threat.
Dear Mr. Ben, I do believe you have misinterpreted what Andrew meant by his article, I reread it just to make sure and I do believe Andrew was saying not that "we should not fight terrorism" but instead that it should be expected, After 911 there were so many stupid people running around with stupid deer in the head light looks on their faces while I sat back relaxed expecting it. If your going to have a country as free as ours shit is going to happen, this is a realization that people must come to. Then stupid people go from being frightened to angry, but not just any anger but the worst kind, uninformed naive anger, the kind that fuels racism and most European households. We are far to comfortable here where we are, with helpless Canada above, economically challenged Mexico below, and ocean on either side. But the world is becoming a smaller place, and our beliefs on warfare HAVE to change if we are to survive. ?An attack on America, my god? is what most people would have said, but honestly if you think about it, everyone hates us and we let everyone in, I expected it and hope you did too.
I do not agree with Gross at all. Just because terrorism is worse in other places, we should not fight it? If I was a terrorist, I would attack America before any other nation. It is the "Great Satan," the representitive in the Western World, security is much looser than places where terror is prevelant, like Israel, and people here are very easily frightened. If a bus blew up here, it would be the top news story for a month, and the bus companies would shut down because people would be so frightened. If you do not stop terrorists right now, or give in to them and negotiate, they will believe their tactics worked, use them again, and increase their operation in size. If you don't believe that the U.S. is being targeted by Al Qaeda terrorists, look to World Trade Center 93', the Khobar Towers bombing, the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania, the U.S.S. Cole, and 9/11/01. These are just large operations in which scores of Americans died. There have also been numerous attacks on other nationalities by Al Qaeda in the last year, such as the Bali bombing in which nearly 200 people died, the takeover of a Moscow theater that led to the deaths of over 100 hostages, and the attacks on Israeli targets in Kenya. If the U.S. gives in to Al Qaeda, they will just get stronger and use stronger means to carry out their operations, such as chemicals, gas, and nukes. Terrorism is a virus, and if we don't destroy it, it will destroy us. As for the great manipulation taking place brought up by Gross, I do not think that the working man will benifit from having to fear each time he takes the bus to work. I do not see how fighting Osama Bin Laden benifits the rich only. It is because of men like him that the Arab world has not recieved messages of democracy, and freedoms which we take for granted. Defeating the terrorist bigots will not only benefit the American establishment, but will benefit all Americans, as well as Arabs who have been denied freedoms because of the fanaticism and mid-evil mentality that the terrorists live by.
As we begin a New Year, the war begun nearly a year and a half ago by nineteen suicidal madmen is still continuing. I fear that those in power may destroy its meaning for their own political advancement, but we must never forget what this war is about. America is, without doubt, the most powerful country in the world. With that power comes great responisibility. The United States must fight this fight with morality in mind. The United States continues to negotiate with corrupt, dictatorial regimes in the Middle East who consider the U.S. their enemy, yet still reap the benefits of the United States' friendship. Saudi Arabia, a corrupt monarchy, gets billions of dollars yearly in U.S. aid, yet still funds, extremist Wahabi Islam, an Islamic sect that spreads anti-semetic and anti-american messages from Europe, to Pakistan, and beyond. 15 of the 19 hijackers during September 11 were Saudi, all hijackers were radicalized in Saudi funded Wahabi institutions IN EUROPE, and Saudi money pays for most of Bin Laden's operations. This is bad enough without mentioning the fact that in Saudi Arabia, there is no freedom of speech, no freedom of religion, and that religious police enforce strict Taliban-like Islamic law in that country. Saudi Arabia has harmed the U.S. much more than Saddam Hussein, yet, they still get U.S. aid and sell America oil. If the U.S. wants to improve its image, fighting terrorism is not the problem, the problem is the hypocracy that it uses to fight it. If the U.S. truly wants to support democracy and freedom around the world, they must remember what America stands for as they fight terrorism. Let the Saudi princes eat oil!
